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Subtlety Rogue: First Impression of the New Subtlety Talent Trees in Dragonflight
Dragonflight
Geposted
08.08.2022 um 10:00
von
fuu1
With the reveal of the Dragonflight Rogue talent trees, our Subtlety Rogue writer fuu1 provides initial reactions and thoughts on this revamped system. We break down the Subtlety Rogue talent trees, discussing the new talents and providing some sample builds. Join us as we predict how this class could play in Dragonflight!
To learn about the best PvE talent builds in Dragonflight for this class, and export these builds into the game, please check out our Assassination, Outlaw, and Subtlety Rogue class guides:
Assassination Rogue Talent BuildsOutlaw Rogue Talent BuildsSubtlety Rogue Talent Builds
Rogue Dragonflight Class Tree
Rogue Dragonflight Talents - What's New?
The start of the new expansion Dragonflight completely overhauls the existing talent system. Instead of unlocking a talent tier roughly every ten character levels, you are now presented with two trees you can put in points as your character level progresses. The class tree contains spells that are core to the class fantasy while the spec trees will emphasize on abilities unique to your specialization or extends baseline abilities into aspects that fit the spec fantasy. These trees contain both active and passive abilities that reach from damage throughput to utility.
The first thing every Subtlety player will notice when looking at the tree is that both
Schattentanz
as well as
Schwäche finden
are now class abilities. While this is a great addition for the other two specs, it means that some of the most iconic Subtlety Rogue specific abilities are now part of the general class fantasy with other implications stated further down in the article.
There are also three unexpected returning talents with
Kaltblütigkeit
on the right side of the tree and the Kyrian covenant ability
Widerhallender Tadel
as the capstone node for the middle path as well as a the iconic item
Disteltee
that returns as a spell with three charges.
The tree also offers some strong options from the other two specializations with
,
Solarplexus
and
Schicksal besiegeln
.
You can also choose from an array of new passive effects with
Tödlichkeit
,
Sparfuchs
,
Verbesserter Hinterhalt
,
Vielseitigkeit des Diebes
or
Virulente Gifte
.
Rogue Dragonflight Talent Tree - First Impressions
By adding a lot of Subtlety Rogues core abilities to the talent tree you create an imbalance in that you likely need to go down the right branch of the tree to get your baseline Shadow Dance charge. The main reason is that
Schattentanz
in combination with
Wachsende Schatten
lacks dynamic in use without two
Schattentanz
charges and the only way to get this is to talent into
Schattentanz
in both the class as well as the spec tree.
Considering the above, I came up with three example talent tree builds:
View on Dragonflight Talent Tree
View on Dragonflight Talent Tree
View on Dragonflight Talent Tree
Going down the right path allows you to grab
Von der Schippe springen
,
Schwäche finden
and
Schattentanz
.
Sparfuchs
is skipped mostly because of the low impact.
Blutung
and
Zerhäckseln
have already a fairly low energy cost of 25 energy
Ausweiden
is a bit higher with 35 energy. This means that the energy return per finisher for each point in the node is 2-3 energy.
Unerbittliche Stöße
in contrast gives 6 energy per combo point for a single node. The tree also offers alternative energy talents that might be more efficient.
Going down the middle path gives access to
Verbesserter Hinterhalt
which gives
Schattenschlag
additional combo point generation. The problem with this is that we create potential combo point overflow. Putting one point into
Meisterlicher Stratege
could solve this but
Meisterlicher Stratege
is also a very expensive node as it requires three points of
Inbrunst
.
Inbrunst
by itself is a very powerful talent but it seems like it might not be worth to invest this much into a talent that might be able to self sustain with only a one or two point investment.
Switching some points around by moving from
Meisterlicher Stratege
to
Lebenskraft
seems possible but Subtlety does not seem to benefit a lot from the extra energy buffer.
When less points are put in
Inbrunst
and potentially
Tödlichkeit
, it opens up the middle path down to
Widerhallender Tadel
. While this seems attractive, it is unclear if the point investment gives sufficient returns. The problem is that this requires an additional pickup of a utility node with
Flüchtigkeit
that only unlocks the full potential of
Widerhallender Tadel
after a 3 more point investment.
A completely alternative path would include moving even more points from the middle path to the left side of the tree to unlock
Schicksal besiegeln
. The potential problem with picking this is that you can combine
Schicksal besiegeln
with
Verbesserter Hinterhalt
which would create even more combo points that would lead to either overflow or earlier finishing rules.
Schicksal besiegeln
also gets more consistent with higher amounts of critical strike. However, the additional combo point generation would allow
Schattentanz
to get even more cdr from
Wachsende Schatten
.
Overall I think there are some interesting decisions in the tree and trade offs to be considered.
Problems of the Rogue Tree:
Most of these problems are smaller concerns but something to think about:
Some nodes seem to be weak and are usually not considerable due to that. Two examples are
Disteltee
and
Sparfuchs
. Neither of them seem terrible but hard to justify over other nodes.
Some nodes require multiple point investments with low/diminishing return potentially locking the player out from choosing follow up nodes. Both
Inbrunst
and
Tödlichkeit
fall under that with
Inbrunst
being the more problematic one, given that it is possible that 1-2 points could already satisfy the talent to maintain the maximum stack amount.
Von der Schippe springen
is a very strong raid utility that is very far down the tree, this is not an issue for Subtlety as you in general will want to take the right path anyways, but could be earlier in the tree to make the talent feel more generally available.
Subtlety Rogue Spec Tree
Subtlety Rogue talents for Raiding - What's New?
The spec-specific tree contains some completely new spells, as well as a couple of returning ones and some changes to existing spells.
Totentanz
- A completely new spell that seems to be inspired by
Widerhallender Tadel
.
Verweilender Schatten
- A completely new talent that empowers
Meucheln
after using
Schattentanz
.
Spurlos
- Is a new talent, that gives you a second charge of
Verschwinden
.
Der erste Tanz
- Seems like a modified version of
Der erste Tanz
that gives you combo points when using
Schattentanz
Replizierende Schatten
- Is a rework of the Battle for Azeroth azerite power
Replizierende Schatten
that spreads
Blutung
to one target and makes
Blutung
tick for additional 30% damage.
Unausweichlichkeit
- Is an iteration of the Battle of Azeroth azerit power
Unausweichlichkeit
.
Finstere Mischung
- Is a new talent that converts more of your damage to shadow and allows it to interact with
Tiefere Dolche
.
Schleierberührt
- Is a new talent that empowers your magic damage, it seems weak as a single node but could work well in combination with
Finstere Mischung
and
Tiefere Dolche
.
Stiller Sturm
- Is a new talent wich provides the player with a more consistent way to apply FW in multi target situations.
Endgültigkeit
- Brings back the legendary power
Endgültigkeit
that empowers your next finishing move after using a finishing move. The buff duration was cut down to 12 seconds.
Die Verdorbenen
- Brings back the legendary power
Die Verdorbenen
that generates combo points after using
Symbole des Todes
.
Belebender Schattenstaub
- Brings back the legendary power
Belebender Schattenstaub
that reduces all remaining cooldowns by up to 20 seconds when using
Verschwinden
.
Sepsis
and
Geißelung
- Both covenant abilities that return as talents.
Geißelung
in a slightly changed version to proc Mastery instead of Haste.
Durchlöcherte Adern
,
Geplante Hinrichtung
,
Schnelle Entscheidungen
,
Stilettstakkato
and
Tiefere Dolche
- Returns conduits from Shadowlands.
Several Talents got adjustments in duration or impact:
Symbole des Todes
,
Schattenklingen
,
Schattentanz
- Got nerfs to their damage amplifiers.
Schattentanz
duration went up to 9 seconds from 8.
Dunkler Schatten
and
Endgültigkeit
- got a buff to their damage amplifiers.
Schattenfokus
- Energy reduction got lowered from 20% to 15%.
Durchlöcherte Adern
- Now stacks only to 3 down from 6.
Subtlety Rogue Dragonflight Talent Tree - First Impressions
The Subtlety Rogue tree is still in early development. It has some issues but the recent alpha update did fix some. The current version is mostly linear after the 8th point investment. There are no connection between the 3 branches that would allow you to continue. The middle part of the tree is mostly focused on spells that depend on
Schattentanz
, the right branch is mostly finisher/AoE focused. Almost all AoE nodes can be skipped now which allows the player to make more precise decisions for their damage profile.
Example Builds
There is a lot of room for experimentation in the trees and I welcome everyone to experiment and see what works well and what does not. I will provide one example for a single target and Mythic plus tree below.
View on Dragonflight Talent Tree
View on Dragonflight Talent Tree
Both builds are very similar in pathing as the right side seems to offer a high amount of strong nodes. The middle path gives you access to
Schattentanz
and
Wachsende Schatten
to create the baseline feedback loop of the spec.
Dunkler Schatten
gives additional power to
Schattentanz
.
The right side gives you a lot of nodes that synergize well.
Finstere Mischung
increases the damage of your bleeds as well as further increasing damage from nodes like
Schattenhaftes Ende
and
Replizierende Schatten
.
Tiefere Dolche
buffs it by another 15% and another 10% from
Schleierberührt
.
Endgültigkeit
increases the baseline damage what just further increases output.
Geißelung
is also a strong pick, given that it does shadow damage and gets benefits from all the shadow/magic damage amplifiers mentioned above. All these Talents work very well together and should allow subtlety to have a more magic damage heavy split.
The outstanding nodes on the left side are
Symbole des Todes
and
Sepsis
.
Finstere Mischung
converts Sepsis to Shadow damage what allows it to benefit from all the talent nodes above that interact with magic/shadow damage.
Symbole des Todes
adds another cooldown that can be aligned to
Geißelung
or
Sepsis
to increase throughput by providing a 10% damage amp as well as a higher critical strike chance from
Geplante Hinrichtung
.
The build is overall very well rounded and has a lot of positive aspects to it. The transition to a build with more focus on multi target or AoE is also fairly simple. The two initial nodes
Schattenschritt
and
Schnelle Entscheidungen
can be changed to
Verbesserter Shurikensturm
and
Schwarzpulver
and
Sepsis
can be exchanged for
Shurikentornado
. After switching these nodes it is possible to switch from
Konzentration
to
Stiller Sturm
. But the choice here is likely more situational.
Another exciting build to explore on single target would be to re-distribute some points into
Verweilender Schatten
and
Düstere Klinge
. Doing so could shift more of the damage of the specialization to time between
Schattentanz
cast with potential to optimize casts in a way that maximizes
Verweilender Schatten
uptime.
Problems of the Subtlety tree:
The change to
Durchlöcherte Adern
makes the power potential of the node hard to read and gameplay implications non obvious. Reducing the stack count from 6 to 3 means you will cap on stacks in the middle of
Schattentanz
. It is likely that it isn't worth to use
Meucheln
during
Schattentanz
but that could depend on other node choices. The 6 stack approach from Shadowlands does not suffer from this problems which would make it a great solution.
The lower left part of the talent tree seems less appealing.
Belebender Schattenstaub
being a two point node with the requirement of going over
Durchlöcherte Adern
makes it a risky choice given that the CDR component isn't necessarily a big damage gain.
Totentanz
similar to
Widerhallender Tadel
will lead to a bad user experience. The main problem is the somewhat random combo point income from
Schattentechniken
(procs on each 3rd or 4th auto attack). While an experienced player will be able to count auto attacks to use the empowered finisher efficiently, a lot of users will find themselves using finishing moves on inefficient values due to combo point generation of
Schattentechniken
.
Verbessertes Meucheln
still has positional requirements and recent boss fights did not always make it easy to stand behind the target or had hit boxes that behaved in a non-logical manner. Having even more damage dependencies from nodes like
Durchlöcherte Adern
makes this more punishing.
There is a broken dependency between
Schattentechniken
and
Stilettstakkato
. While it is unlikely that you will not talent into
Schattentechniken
, it seems like something easy to fix by moving nodes around.
There is still no choice node in the Subtlety Rogue tree.
Lack of Raid Utility
Dragonflight introduced raid utility to both the Outlaw as well as the Assassination spec tree. Outlaw got
Ruhlose Bande
and Assassination
Atrophisches Gift
. While the impact of both highly depend on raid design and group composition, it creates a uneven playing field within Rogue specs and the potential to require one spec over the other due to spec specific raid utility.
The best approach to solve this is to move raid utility to the class tree and have access to it for all specializations.
Subtlety Rogue Dragonflight Talents for Raiding - How Strong is It?
The elephant in the room at this point is sadly raid utility, and will likely stay a relevant discussion up to the point of official changes, but I am fairly positive this will be adjusted.
Raid utility aside, the talent tree gives you options to decide between single target, multi target and in some cases also utility. Specific nodes like
Replizierende Schatten
or
Finstere Mischung
will integrate spells like
Blutung
deeper into the spec and potentially help with damage in cleave situations. The main focus of the spec seems to still be single target and the gameplay loop will likely not alter significantly from the Shadowlands version.
Geißelung
changing from Haste to Mastery as well as
Schattentanz
getting a potential higher damage amp could lead to a higher burst potential and help increase funnel damage.
Conclusion
The talent trees have gotten me hyped for the new expansion and given me something to play around with. The class tree is to a degree not as exciting, given that a most of the talents you would want to choose are in the Subtlety branch of the tree. The spec tree emphasizes the core aspects of the specialization and potentially allows for a fair amount of flexibility. However, the majority of the choice is in point changes in a smaller range.
Interested in playing Subtlety Rogue now? Check our out live guide for this spec!
Subtlety Rogue Guide
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