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Vengeance Demon Hunter State on Shadowlands Beta - Ineffectual Changes, Rotation Issues, Covenants
Shadowlands
Criado
25/7/2020 em 03:18
por
Itamae
Feedback and opinions on the state of Vengeance Demon Hunter on the state of Shadowlands Beta discussing the ineffectual changes, rotation issues, covenant abilities and more!
Introduction
Ever since the introduction of the Demon Hunter class in Legion, Vengeance as a spec has always felt reliant on borrowed power from external systems rather than being complete in its design. Since the spec didn’t exist prior to Legion, and was built in concert with Artifact Weapons, it became immediately obvious in early BFA testing that the core design didn’t work well once they were removed. Despite the introduction of stronger Azerite traits in 8.1, followed by Essences in 8.2 and Corruption in 8.3 bringing up the overall power level, Vengeance feels incomplete and has major core issues. With the removal of these external systems in Shadowlands and the introduction of new ones, we’re looking at yet another expansion where Vengeance will be incomplete without borrowed power.
In this article, we will cover the changes currently available on the Shadowlands Alpha, and how they impact Vengeance.
About the Author
This article was written by Itamae, Vengeance theorycrafter and mod on the
Fel Hammer Demon Hunter Class Discord
. I have mained Vengeance since Legion Beta while maintaining alts of every spec and can be found answering questions as well as discussing lesser known facets of the game in multiple class discords. Prior to publication, this article was critiqued by Fel Hammer regulars who have achieved Cutting Edge every tier and pushed some of the world's highest Mythic keystones, as well as other tank theorycrafters.
Changes and Issues
Pain has been renamed Fury in Shadowlands to match Havoc.
Devastação Vil
, a talent that was taken in early Legion before the Spirit Bomb rework, and appears to be our spec’s signature spell, is now baseline.
Glutonaria
has been replaced with
Demoníaco
.
Cutilada da Alma
received a minor buff increasing its damage and healing compared to BfA, but is now limited to 5 targets.
Marca Ardente
gained a new rank
Marca Ardente
that causes it to leave a DoT on the target for a small amount of damage.
Espinhos Demoníacos
has been buffed, giving 75% of our agility as armor instead of 60%.
Mastery has been increased from 20% base to 24%.
Good
Baseline
Devastação Vil
gives us another Fury spender as well as interactions with some new talents.
Talents have been reworked so that we no longer have to choose between Damage and Survivability, and our Survivability is less reliant on random procs.
Demoníaco
allows us to consistently control when we want
Metamorfose
up and no longer competes with
Bomba Espiritual
on the same row.
We gained a little bit more survivability during Active Mitigation uptime relative to BfA due to the changes to
Espinhos Demoníacos
and Mastery.
Bad
Unless we take the
Bomba Espiritual
talent, we will be entirely reliant on the low damage from
Aura de Imolação
and
Signo da Chama
in order to hold aggro in AoE situations due to the 5 target cap on
Cutilada da Alma
.
Sigils are our only form of group utility and one of our core sigils,
Signo dos Grilhões
is a talent rather than being baseline. This could be replaced by a talent that has an effect on all our Sigils like the other two talents such as increasing the radius of effect, making the row dependent on content. Some other active form of utility like a stun or group defensive would help round out the spec.
Mastery is effectively just Agility in another form and has no interesting interaction with our kit. It makes
Espinhos Demoníacos
stronger when active, which is generally unnecessary. A rework to make it affect gameplay in some fashion would make it stronger and more rewarding. For example, bring back
Traztormento
in some form, or
Alimento para o Demônio
as part of Mastery allowing a feedback loop that incentivizes proper gameplay.
Soul pickup from movement and in situations where we are up against terrain causing Souls to spawn inside us is still an issue. It causes us to lose DPS when playing
Bomba Espiritual
, and lose survivability when playing any other build since we are unable to control consumption.
Many of our talents, both old and new are still never going to be taken due to one talent in each row being excessively powerful.
We have 3 talents here which provide some increase to mobility, along with some damage.
Golpe Abissal
was merged with
Colisão Flamejante
, but we lost some quality of life in having the bonus 10 yard range removed. It will still be the strongest pick outside of some niche builds where
Chamas Agonizantes
may be taken.
Lâmina Vil
is still a dead talent due to requiring an enemy target to charge to, and costing extra GCDs while generating Fury but no Souls, which are our core resource.
This row contains talents that provide survivability in general. However,
Precipitação
is still the only talent that provides a significant increase, as well as some damage through the souls generated.
Cutilada da Alma
’s base heal is so low that
Banquete de Almas
is insignificant, and the HoT is overwritten on every cast.
Queimando Vivo
only works in AoE situations, but spreads too slowly to matter, and if the targets with
Marca Ardente
on them die, it stops spreading.
We again have talents that provide survivability with some damage.
Bomba Espiritual
will be the default pick due to a significant damage and healing increase, with
Carne Calcinada
having some uses when combined with
Chamas Agonizantes
for a pure ST defensive situation.
Armadura Infernal
is unlikely to see play because of our base armor being too low for it to matter, while in situations where we have
Espinhos Demoníacos
or
Metamorfose
up, our armor is high enough that a 20% increase is insignificant.
This row has no clear theme.
Fratura
will likely be default due to providing burst souls for
Bomba Espiritual
, with
Alimento para o Demônio
being taken for situations where
Espinhos Demoníacos
uptime is critical or when we need to heal a constant flow of damage, thus requiring
Talhar
for Soul generation.
Dilaceração da Alma
is close to useless and will never be taken due to how little offensive power we have translating into small amounts of leech.
This row contains utility regarding our Sigils.
Signo dos Grilhões
will be the default for any mob control situations, while
Signos Concentrados
is for a very minor DPS increase when combined with
Golpe Abissal
.
Signos Céleres
currently has no function.
This row contains defensive options.
Demoníaco
will be the default due to how powerful
Metamorfose
is. What typically kills tanks is spike damage, rather than sustained, so a powerful cooldown is generally stronger than some consistent damage smoothing as provided by
Aniquilador do Caos
.
Barreira de Almas
provides a function similar to, but weaker than
Demoníaco
, and requires spending Souls which we would rather use on
Bomba Espiritual
, due to the the extreme defensive gain from
Metamorfose
.
This row also provides defensive options.
Último Recurso
will still be the primary pick, due to the power of a Cheat Death in progression content.
Baluarte Ruinoso
overlaps functionality with Demonic, stacking the cooldowns, thus making it less appealing, while
Extração em Massa
has too long of a cooldown considering it provides a heal equivalent to one
Bomba Espiritual
. However, it may have a niche as a damage talent in AoE situations where
Último Recurso
isn’t needed.
Ugly
Our core rotation has been problematic since we were introduced to the game and this is not changing in Shadowlands. When combined with our Active Mitigation model that has large gaps and reliance on external systems to fill in these gaps, we run into survivability issues. In addition, we have issues with threat in the base kit due to a lack of synergy and low coefficients on our damage spells. We will cover these issues in-depth below.
Resource conflict
First of all, Fury is still generally unimportant as a resource, with Souls taking priority. After the rework in BfA with Souls healing for 8% of damage taken in the last 5 seconds in combination with large mitigation gaps, Vengeance has revolved around generating and consuming as many Souls as possible while entirely disregarding Pain outside of minimum requirements in the rotational priority both for damage and survivability. In the current model, both Souls and Pain provide a source of damage and healing, but Souls do so much more effectively. If the developers wish to continue prioritizing Souls as our resource, then we should either have a system where Fury is spent to generate Souls or split the focus so that Fury is for damage/threat while Souls are for healing or vice-versa.
The primary culprit is the BfA rework of
Talhar
causing it to always generate a Soul. With the
Alimento para o Demônio
talent, we are able to play a rotation known as “overcap” which allows us to do incredible amounts of healing by pressing nothing but
Alimento para o Demônio
(and
Aura de Imolação
with
Precipitação
in AoE) to constantly generate Souls which are automatically consumed for healing if we already have 5 out. This situation still exists in Shadowlands and causes all other parts of the toolkit to be ignored, which is both unintuitive and not interesting gameplay. Pressing one button endlessly should not lead to maximum survivability, especially since it enables situations like solo-tanking Mythic
Shad'har, o Insaciável
. In addition, the trade-off for this survivability is that it has extremely low threat generation since we are pressing a button that deals very low damage and hits only one target. Because of this, we end up having significant threat issues in situations where we need extreme survivability such as Mythic Keystones at high levels.
Ineffective Spells and Threat Issues
Borrowed Power
One major issue with reliance on external systems is the requirement of damage corruptions in order to be viable. Currently, our strongest build requires us to stack as much
Devastação do Crepúsculo
as possible, with
Açoite do Caos
in order to maintain aggro, and due to the randomness of procs, we can still struggle. We can use the
Força do Guardião
major to counteract this, but at the cost of using another strong major Essence.
Our base damage kit has no interaction or synergy, causing us to struggle on threat, especially when needing to kite. The lack of threat in our base kit becomes even more problematic at high Keystone levels, where most tanks prefer to stack Versatility and
Versátil
corruptions in order to make pulls survivable. Due to the lack of damage in our kit, when Versatility stacking, we don’t do enough damage to hold aggro with
Glutonaria
, so we are forced to choose between threat and survival.
With corruption going away in the Shadowlands pre-patch and Essences at launch, we will be in a significantly worse spot both in damage and survivability than we currently are.
Soul Cleave
Ever since Legion,
Cutilada da Alma
has been a button that is extremely unimpactful and something we actively try to avoid pressing unless needed. In Legion, this was because of the existence of Pain from Damage Taken(PfDT), which gave Pain based on the amount of incoming damage, and
, which as a Pain spender, allowed us to generate Souls and use
Bomba Espiritual
, which only cost souls to deal damage. With that being the popular build,
Cutilada da Alma
became a button that was completely ignored as a spender, as it dealt less damage and less healing while competing for Pain as a resource. In addition,
Talhar
was completely ignored as we did not need to generate Pain in high damage situations.
In BfA, PfDT was removed and
Fratura
became a replacement spell for
Talhar
instead of a separate spender, now generating more Pain and Souls at the cost of a charge system with a short cooldown.
Bomba Espiritual
was also changed to cost 30 Pain in addition to Souls. With this change, rather than being able to constantly spam
-
-
Bomba Espiritual
in high damage content, we were limited to pressing
Fratura
twice every 6 GCDs, which allowed for 1
Bomba Espiritual
. This left 3 free GCDs in the rotation, allowing for us to use other abilities. As we had no other consistent abilities to press, the most efficient button thus became
Cutilada da Alma
to spend any remaining pain, followed by other longer cooldowns.
However,
Cutilada da Alma
did so little damage that it has been buffed by 20% in BfA twice, followed by another 20% buff in the current Shadowlands Alpha for a total of 60%. It also received a new rank
Cutilada da Alma
which increases the base healing by 35% per soul consumed. However, it is still doing significantly less damage and healing than
Bomba Espiritual
for the same amount of Fury, so despite the developers’ stated goal of having us use
Bomba Espiritual
as a maintenance buff for
Fragilidade
and
Cutilada da Alma
otherwise, we will still never prioritize it over
Bomba Espiritual
.
A possible fix to this could be making
Cutilada da Alma
generate Souls at the cost of Pain, rather than consuming them, reworking
Banquete de Almas
to make it generate extra Souls, and
Bomba Espiritual
to apply
Fragilidade
but not deal as much damage. Another possibility would be to separate the functions of Fury and Souls by making
Cutilada da Alma
deal significantly more damage and remove the target cap, remove the base healing, and rework
Bomba Espiritual
to do bonus healing when more Souls are consumed.
Ranged and AoE Threat
This is primarily a Mythic+ issue, as we have no good ranged threat generation and weak AoE threat without
Bomba Espiritual
.
Signo da Chama
does far too little damage relative to the length of its cooldown, and is only used as a GCD filler when there is nothing else to press. Similarly,
Aura de Imolação
is only used because it generates souls with
Precipitação
, not because of its damage.
Cutilada da Alma
has a target cap and requires melee range, as well as hitting in a frontal cone rather than all around us. Taking
Bomba Espiritual
somewhat mitigates this issue, but forces us into a one specific talent build, which trades survivability and overall damage for consistency, and seems to be something the developers actively are trying to avoid.
In order to fix this, I believe our base spells should be given a tuning pass, increasing the damage of
Talhar
,
Cutilada da Alma
,
Signo da Chama
, and
Aura de Imolação
, with target caps removed. We currently lack a spammable AoE generator spell, which every other tank has, so perhaps we could separate
Fratura
from
Talhar
rather than replacing it, and make
Talhar
have an AoE component while keeping
Fratura
single target. Alternatively, reduce the cooldowns on
Signo da Chama
and
Aura de Imolação
so that we can have them available for burst threat when waves of adds spawn. Another option could be to give us a baseline offensive cooldown that improves our spells or reduces their cooldowns while active, allowing us to generate burst threat when needed. This would also allow us to keep some threat from range while kiting, as we are currently the only tank that is unable to consistently generate threat while out of melee range.
Mitigation Gaps
Our Active Mitigation system continues to be badly designed for situations in which we need to tank for extended periods. With the base kit, we have 30% uptime on
Espinhos Demoníacos
, increased by haste and
Alimento para o Demônio
. Our only defensive cooldown outside of
Metamorfose
is
Marca Ardente
which is Single Target, meaning we have no way of reducing damage in multi-target situations. While the low uptime of
Espinhos Demoníacos
is manageable in Single Target raid situations with tank swaps that give us time to recharge, if we need to tank for extended periods on multiple targets, we run out of charges and rely on external help.
Alimento para o Demônio
fixes this issue, but forces us into a talent that should be part of our base toolkit that rewards proper gameplay with increased defensive uptime.
The heavy reliance on external systems as a source of power to make Vengeance viable is another major contributor to our gaps in mitigation. We have two separate issues - mitigation gaps and threat - that are currently solved with this borrowed power, both of which will need new solutions when the BfA systems are removed.
Currently in BfA, Vengeance with
Espinhos Demoníacos
active has approximately the same armor as Protection Warriors or Paladins do by default. With
Metamorfose
up, that brings us up to similar Damage Reduction levels as they have with
Levantar Escudo
or
Escudo do Íntegro
. However, we still take significant amounts of damage through
Espinhos Demoníacos
on high level Mythic Keystones and even with self-healing from Souls, we hit a survivability wall earlier. With access to the
Visão da Perfeição
minor reducing our cooldown to 2 minutes and 15 seconds from 3 minutes, as well as 0.952 RPPM of
Metamorfose
on the Major, on top of
Glutonaria
, we are able to maintain upwards of 50% uptime on
Metamorfose
. Combining this with high haste allows us to maintain mitigation uptime of close to 100%.
In Shadowlands, we trade all of this away for
Demoníaco
, which gives us approximately 30% uptime if both
Devastação Vil
and
Metamorfose
are used on cooldown. In combination with the low Active Mitigation uptime that we have as a base, this means we will have a large mitigation gap of 30-40% where we have neither
Espinhos Demoníacos
nor
Metamorfose
available. There will likely be Legendaries that may help solve this issue, but it is again a reliance on getting specific setups in order to be viable.
Marca Ardente
being a ST defensive can help in specific encounters. However, it has a couple major issues as a defensive. It is on the GCD due to having a damage component, unlike the damage reduction cooldowns of every other tank spec. In any situation with more than one target, or where the target isn’t the primary source of damage such as soaking environmental damage, it provides little to no reduction. Redesigning it to global Damage Reduction as a cooldown would help fill in these gaps. For example, in keeping with the class theme, we could cast it on ourselves, dealing damage but giving us the Damage Reduction on all incoming damage, or it could be cast in AoE around us, rather than Single Target, or naturally spread quickly. This would require a rework to the
Queimando Vivo
talent, but it already would never be taken in any situation.
I'd like to see the base cooldown on
Espinhos Demoníacos
reduced so that we can reach close to, if not 100% uptime, or
Alimento para o Demônio
made baseline with a new talent replacing it. Doing this would reduce our heavy reliance on ways to proc
Metamorfose
for survivability as well as the spikes of damage that we take when no mitigation is available.
Covenants
We have access to one generic and one class-specific ability with the introduction of Covenants in Shadowlands. With the current design where it will be difficult to switch, some Covenants will be a default pick depending on your preferred content, but you will be significantly less effective in other forms of content.
Kyrian
Class Ability
:
Decreto Elísio
- At first glance, it is a strong AoE sigil on paper, dealing approximately 3 times as much damage as
Glutonaria
and shattering up to 3 Souls, but with twice the cooldown. Since it is a sigil, it does get affected by
Signos Céleres
. However, with how strong
Signo dos Grilhões
is in AoE content for control, this combination would never be used.
Generic
:
Evocar Comissário
- Provides a vial similar to the
Dínamo de Nulificação
Major effect, which is largely useless in BfA. It remains to be seen if encounters in Shadowlands will have this same issue.
Venthyr
Class Ability
:
Marca Pecaminosa
- Another strong effect, it’s similar to our
Marca Ardente
, but instead of flat damage reduction, it lowers melee and cast speed and deals 3 times as much damage. Activating
Metamorfose
causes it to apply to everything nearby. This is effectively a supercharged form of Fiery Brand but doesn’t help against nukes, so it’s going to be more powerful in high Mythic keystones. Unfortunately, it also suffers from the cooldown stacking problem, where we have the major defensive boost occurring while we have already used a large cooldown in
Metamorfose
.
Generic
:
Porta das Sombras
- a teleport that will likely have many uses in dungeons to avoid mechanics or do skips.
Necrolord
Class Ability
:
Avivar as Chamas
- Effectively a damage and defensiveness boost due to the Demon Soul that is spawned when it dies, along with the puddle. The cooldown is far too long to be particularly effective, and depending on our tuning, the damage boost is likely to be negligible.
Generic
:
Moldacarne
- This shield requires a channel, during which we cannot dodge or parry, making it difficult to find 4 seconds during which we can find time to use it. The saving grace is that the cooldown matches
Avivar as Chamas
so we can always guarantee the full shield.
Night Fae
Class Ability
:
A Caçada
- A very cool ability, it allows us to teleport to a marked enemy after charging to them once, every 30 seconds without line of sight required. It will likely have uses in PvP or for some niche kiting situations where you want to get back to a target quickly. It increases the Fury generation from Shear, which is effectively useless as we have no good ways to spend Fury.
Generic
:
Forma da Alma
- Mobility spell that provides a short range blink. Could be useful in different encounters but likely to be less effective than
Porta das Sombras
As it is, Kyrian will likely never be taken for any sort of content due to
Decreto Elísio
being relatively weak compared to the options from other Covenants outside of a possible full Single Target build for some raid encounters stacking
Chamas Agonizantes
,
Carne Calcinada
, and the new legendary effect
Profanação de Razelikh
while never using any other sigils aside from
Decreto Elísio
in order to game the cooldown. When compared to Venthyr for example,
Decreto Elísio
requires 3.5 targets to do equivalent damage to a single target for
Marca Pecaminosa
, and the Soul generation is delayed so it cannot be used as an emergency burst heal. Night Fae will be only used in PvP as there are few encounters that require us to get away from a target and go back to it quickly, and we already have two charges of Infernal Strike for that. Necrolord could be used for encounters where a large shield is needed and we have time to prepare in advance, but would be useless in most situations and we have no offensive cooldowns to sync with the damage boost from the consumed Demon Soul. Venthyr seems to be significantly stronger than the others, providing both damage and survivability on a short cooldown for Single Target while having an AoE option with
Metamorfose
, and extra mobility that allows for dodging mechanics.
Considering that it looks like we are going to essentially be locked into a Covenant and how the Kyrian, Necrolord, and Night Fae abilities are both clunky and ineffectual, Venthyr will be the only viable choice as the effects are strong in the vast majority of situations, removing the option of using any other Covenant.
While we have yet to see the final form of Soulbinds, from what we have available so far, they are looking to be equally as imbalanced, and Conduits exacerbate that issue, being similar to relics or gems that drop randomly from different content.
Legendaries
Being the newest class, we don’t have many past legendaries or tier bonuses that could be reworked into strong choices during Shadowlands. While some of the effects from Torghast or the past could be quite strong and flesh out our kit, Vengeance should not have to rely on borrowed effects to feel complete, as the core problems are not solved and we lose all our power with each expansion. The current incarnation of Legendaries leaves much to be desired.
General Legendaries
Potencialização de Meio-gigante
- Absolutely useless. In no situation would we ever need a movement speed or melee range boost, and increased size can actually be detrimental, making it harder to judge mechanics and positioning.
Calada da Noite
- Giving us a defensive group cooldown with no way to control when it is dropped is bad. There are many situations where we could potentially drop to 35% due to an external factor but not be in any danger, so this will never be used outside of some possibility of a niche situation where we can drop health for a raid cooldown before a mechanic.
Bênção do Clarão Sombrio
- Quite likely to be the only useful legendary, this will provide us with approximately 4.5% increased uptime on
Metamorfose
when taking the
Demoníaco
talent, which is likely to be our default talent choice in Shadowlands. While it is random, it provides us with a similar effect to
Glutonaria
and can proc off of itself, allowing us to extend
Metamorfose
duration. Unfortunately, it will still not be strong enough to make up for the large Mitigation gaps we're likely to see.
Angústia Coletiva
- Seems interesting, but not likely to be very strong. For Vengeance, it will summon an allied Havoc Demon Hunter that casts
Raio Ocular
. It has potential to deal quite a bit of damage depending on tuning, but provides no defensive benefits. In addition, it always spawns to your right and is locked in place, similar to
Fura-bloqueio Kultireno
, so it can completely miss, especially if you need to move or turn to follow a target.
Havoc Legendary
Bombardeio Vil
- If this works for Vengeance despite being categorized as a Havoc Legendary, it has some potential for extra threat in AoE, especially if the additional glaive portion stacks. Unfortunately, it looks like as of the current build, legendaries are spec-locked.
Vengeance Legendaries
Alma do Fogo
- A reworked form of
Kirel Narak
from Legion, rather than reducing the cooldown on enemies hit by
Aura de Imolação
, it reduces the cooldown of
Marca Ardente
for every Soul consumed by
Cutilada da Alma
. This would only ever be taken if playing the
Chamas Agonizantes
/
Carne Calcinada
combination in a pure Single Target encounter for maximum uptime on
Marca Ardente
. The vast majority of the time, we will be playing
Bomba Espiritual
and preferring to consume all Souls with that, so this legendary would have no effect whatsoever.
Profanação de Razelikh
- The effect from
Avambraços Perdidos do Profanador
in Legion, which was basically never used. We only press
Cutilada da Alma
once every 6 GCDs, so it's approximately 50% cooldown reduction on a Sigil in the best case, and reducing the cooldown of a random Sigil isn't particularly helpful. The only way to control the cooldown reduction is to not use any other Sigil than the one we want a reduction on. Depending on tuning, there's a possibility of using it with the Kyrian covenant and never using any Sigil outside of
Decreto Elísio
for maximum damage, but it would likely still be worse than just playing
Bomba Espiritual
.
Fortificação de Chama Vil
- The effect from
Manto de Chamas Vis
in Legion. Passive magic reduction is nice, but unlikely to see use in most encounters. If anything, it might be taken in some raid encounters where there is a lot of consistent rot damage, but it's unlikely to be more useful than
Bênção do Clarão Sombrio
.
Espírito da Chama das Trevas
- The effect from
Espírito da Chama das Trevas
in Legion. This was hardly ever chosen in Legion, and seems like it won't be in Shadowlands either. Without taking
Golpe Abissal
, it won't stack quickly enough to do the full damage or healing on each brand, and the only use would be in AoE to burst down a priority target. If encounters or dungeons are designed around this, it might be useful but in the past they haven't been.
Overall Evaluation of Legendaries
So far, based on the legendary effects released, we are gaining much less than would have been expected, and none of them fill the gaps in our kit for either threat or survival. The best legendary effect we have still leaves us with upwards of a 30% gap in mitigation where we have neither
Espinhos Demoníacos
nor
Metamorfose
, and at best provide less than 1% to damage and threat. The heavy focus on
Cutilada da Alma
and
Marca Ardente
in our legendaries speaks volumes about the lack of understanding of Vengeance's issues.
Closing
The Alpha rotation feels a little better than Retail at the moment, with the addition of
Devastação Vil
and shifting of our talent placements. However, the fundamental design remains the same and the issues we’ve had since our introduction in Legion remain the same. We continue to have the same weaknesses that have plagued our spec, while not particularly gaining any strengths. In addition, it seems like the designers are still trying to push us towards pressing
Cutilada da Alma
more often by using external effects. Rather than trying to entice us to press a button that does nothing by adding additional effects, it would be more effective to rework the button so that we want to press it, and have these effects as a bonus. Losing external sources of power such as Essences and Corruption is going to be extremely punishing during pre-patch and launch. Barring a full rework, we will continue to need band-aid fixes to both survivability and threat throughout the course of the expansion as we did in both Legion and BfA. As we only have access to leveling gear and enemies, we cannot say with certainty how our survivability will end up in progression content, but based on past encounters and the lack of changes to our Active Mitigation model, the outlook is grim. While it has always been possible to get Cutting Edge, and even Hall of Fame with Vengeance, the players achieving this have typically been doing so in spite of the spec, rather than because of it.
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