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More Significant Affix Changes Coming - Wowhead Interview with Morgan Day and Ion Hazzikostas
The War Within
Опубликовано
19.06.2024 в 14:31
Squishei
Wowhead recently had the opportunity to sit down with Morgan Day and Ion Hazzikostas and discuss many topics about War Within. In this segment, Morgan Day and Ion Hazzikostas discuss some of the overarching philosophies and changes to Mythic+ design coming in War Within.
Affixes in the War Within
Affixes have continued to be a controversial topic amongst the community, especially after
last week's announcement
of new Mythic+ affixes. There were many
different reactions in the community
, commenting on the fact that Bolstering and Sanguine are remaining, to critiquing the new level 4 affixes. The war against affixes has been ongoing for some time, with some players arguing that affixes shouldn't exist at all because it doesn't let players enjoy the dungeon, while others argue that they enjoy the week to week changes that affixes provide. We've seen continued nerfs to affixes that have stuck around from the start of Mythic+ in Legion, if you compare Bolstering from Legion to Bolstering now, there's a pretty big difference in its power.
And so, when we were given the opportunity to discuss the War Within with Morgan Day and Ion Hazzikostas, we gave them some time to discuss the overarching philosophy of affixes in Mythic+ and their plans for them in the future and it seems like they have some large plans in the works!
Ion Hazzikostas
This has obviously been a huge topic in the community in recent weeks it's been a huge topic within the team in recent weeks. We're far from done when it comes to the current state of Beta, we're looking to roll out a couple more pretty significant swings in how we approach Affixes and the Mythic+ system. As testing continues in the coming weeks, I don't want to get ahead of spoiling what all those will be, but stay tuned for some forum and blog updates in the next couple builds.
Morgan Day also mentions some of the reasons that they had picked the affixes in the level 7 bucket from
last week's announcement
, mentioning that they didn't want any additional adds or mechanics that could occur -- no additional nameplates, no Volcanic or Quaking that could occur. Instead the affixes that they kept have a consistent unique property that affects all the trash equally and is easy to understand.
Morgan Day
To speak to the post that we made, I think one of the major design goals there that we could try to reiterate on more is that we were trying not to create new Nameplates in the gameplay space, we're not trying to create things that might be considered an ability or mechanic on a boss fight -- you're not spawning a new add, there's not Quaking or Volcanic where feel like these mechanics that are kind of just happening. The things that we wanted to focus on were things that felt more like a overarching rule change, like all trash in the dungeon behaves in this way or reacts in this way and you can plan for that really easily, it's not something that would surprise you. You can hopefully approach the pulls differently or approach the dungeon differently to combat those affixes. That was really where we were focusing on when we did keep some of those affixes that were in those current level 7 bucket.
But in the end they mention "a couple more pretty significant swings" for Affixes and the Mythic+ system, and taking a step back and revisiting all this on the next iteration, so that's very exciting news for Mythic+ fans!
Weekly Keys vs. Key Pushing
They continue to expand on some of their philosophies regarding affixes in general, noting that the primary purpose of affixes is not to add difficulty but to add variety. For the average Mythic+ player that wants to get some loot or fill out their Vault, Ion explains that they're seeing consistent participation and success rates week over week and they believe that for this audience, affixes serve a valuable purpose in providing variety.
They then mention the other type of player, the players who like to push keys at the highest end of the system, whether that be for the title or to just improve their personal best. For many years, these players have identified and valued a 'push week', a week that has favorable affixes and would allow players to push the highest keys possible. Other weeks with less favorable affixes just make the whole week feel dead, or people don't want to play because of those affixes. Players know that you can't beat your best time this week. Ion addresses these concerns, noting that when you have variation from week to week, there will be some outcomes that are more favorable than others and agrees that this is frustrating and getting in the way of enjoying the experience.
They mention that Affixes impact these groups of players differently, with affixes with Storming or Bursting being considered "free" by high end players, but actually having a significant impact on lower keystone success rates compared to say Bolstering or Raging. They believe that comes down to how these groups play with the high end group likely looking to push things to the limit and trying to pull as many groups as possible together, and affixes having different affects on different playstyles. So what's the solution?
Ion Hazzikostas
I don't think the right answer is to remove affixes for all players.
It seems that they understand the problem that high key pushers seem to face here, and have also identified that there are two distinct groups of people who have different goals and interact with affixes differently. You have people who are doing weekly keys that want some variation from week to week, and high key pushers that find the variation frustrating from week to week. And it looks like they're planning to make some big changes to address this:
I don't think the right answer is to remove affixes for all players. However, we are discussing some solutions that may allow players who are focused on the competitive optimization and perfection aspect of the dungeon system to have less randomness and variation in their week over week experience.
While they don't mention what these changes are, they should be coming out in a blog post in the next week or two and seem really focused on separating the goals and frustrations regarding affixes amongst these two groups of people.
Morgan Day
We're looking at this from the point of Mythic+ trying to serve multiple audiences and trying to come up with a one size fits all solution to that has caused some problems in finding the correct solution.
Some brief
speculation
as nothing has been confirmed, but on the Beta, we had one of Fortified and Tyrannical be added at level 2, while the other one was added at level 10. I think most people thought this was just a bug, but this would, in theory, make less variation and allow Blizzard to more easily tune the high end key pushing experience since it has less variation. However, this was never confirmed to be a bug or not on Beta. In a similar fashion, they could reduce or remove the affix rotation from high keys which would address the concerns that they mentioned above.
The "Stop" Meta
In previous expansions before Dragonflight, when a player used a stun or displacement ability on a mob that was casting, it would likely just start to cast that ability again once the CC effect was over. The only way to truly stop the cast was to use an interrupt spell like Counterspell. However, in Dragonflight, a decision was made to make most, if not all, mobs not recast their ability if they were CC'ed out of their cast. This had some interesting impacts on the Meta, as most interrupts weren't handled by proper interrupts, but now by stops, and notably AoE CC abilities. Why coordinate single target interrupts or stuns, when an AoE CC ability can do it? This change had an impact on the classes that were desired.
We asked Ion Hazzikostas and Morgan Day about the prevalence of stops in Dragonflight, and if there were any plans to address this in War Within.
Ion Hazzikostas
The team had started designing specific abilities in dungeons to go on cooldown when the spell cast began, no matter what, so if you stopped that cast in any manner whether it was Death Gripping the mob or CC'ing it, it would go on cooldown just as if it had been interrupted. That is still appropriate in some circumstances, but the increasing proliferation in dungeons is what kind of created this incredibly powerful utility that has been seen to dictate perceived optimal comps in the last couple years. So we've been designing War Within dungeons to move back closer to how things used to be in that regard, still doing it where it's appropriate, but not defaulting to have all abilities go on cooldown when the cast starts. These tools should still be tremendously powerful tools for disrupting, for managing, for relocating enemies in a dungeon but they shouldn't be the answer to nearly every problem that you're presented in a way that reduces viable comp diversity.
It seems like the goal is to pull back some of the impact of stops in Mythic+ by making some mobs recast their abilities. This does add an additional burden of knowledge on the player, having to learn and remember what can and can’t be stopped, but it seems better than the alternative of a hyper focus on AoE CC abilities.
Morgan Day then goes on to explain that in doing this, it won’t just be in a vacuum. They’ll also be taking a look at things like cast times, recast times and how dangerous they are and can make adjustments there.
Full Answers
These are the full transcribed answers from Morgan Day and Ion Hazzikostas from these questions, edited for clarity.
Affixes have continued to be a controversial topic. At this point, it seems that the closer that we get to an affix that does nothing, the happier people are. Do you still think that Affixes are needed to change week to week combat? If so, what changes would you feel like affixes need to make in order to be more fun for players?
Ion Hazzikostas
This has obviously been a huge topic in the community in recent weeks, it's been a huge topic within the team in recent weeks. We're far from done when it comes to the current state of Beta, we're looking to roll out a couple more pretty significant swings in how we approach Affixes and the Mythic+ system. As testing continues in the coming weeks, I don't want to get ahead of spoiling what all those will be, but stay tuned for some forum and blog updates in the next couple builds.
Part of what we've been talking about is the increasing divergence in the approach that the Mythic+ audience takes to the content. We look at affixes, like Bolstering and Raging, and for the "average" Mythic+ player (to the extent that there is such a thing is the person who is just running Mythic+ for loot, for filling out their Vault row, and just to have fun running dungeons with friends) if you're running a Mythic 8 or whatever, we're seeing consistent participation and success rates, week over week. For that audience, affixes continue to serve a valuable purpose in varying that experience week over week, slightly changing the puzzle that the group needs to solve. We've heard feedback from the community that asks "If there's just there to add difficulty, why are they needed? We have health and damage increases to add difficulty." And we agree, the primary purposes of affixes is not to add difficulty, it's to add variety.
Now for people who are playing Mythic+ at the highest end of the system -- people who have long since gotten Keystone Hero and all their teleports and are pushing potentially for the Season titles or to improve their personal best, the only thing they're playing for in the system is raising that bar, is raising that personal best. And so, at the cutting edge of the limits of any system, when you have variation from week to week, there will be some outcomes that are more favorable than others. For groups that are pushing their limits, if they realize that they are able to achieve a new best on a Push Week, like Bursting or whatever, and the next week cycles in and even though they could complete dungeons, they know they could not beat their absolute best time this week. It makes the whole week feel dead and it feels dead because of that affix, and who is responsible for that affix? Blizzard, the World of Warcraft team. They very rightly give the feedback that this is frustrating, this is getting in their way of enjoying the experience. We understand that, and we agree. I don't think the right answer is to remove affixes for all players. However, we are discussing some solutions that may allow players who are focused on the competitive optimization and perfection aspect of the dungeon system to have less randomness and variation in their week over week experience. This is something that we've seen across dungeons in other forms over the past. Going back to past expansions, dungeons like Arcway or Waycrest Manor used to have different routes from week to week or even from run to run in some cases, to vary the experience so it feels like for players running the dungeon, you are exploring a dynamic environment. But we understand that if you are in an Esports setting or absolutely trying to squeeze every ounce of performance out of your group, variation is unwelcome.
So those are some of our broad philosophical thoughts right now and we look forward to sharing the plans we're working on with the community in the next week or two and continuing the conversation and getting tons of feedback.
With the recent affix changes, the community has reacted to seeing Bolstering and Sanguine still in the rotation. These affixes seem to go against the mantra of “minimizing the mechanical overlap between affixes and dungeon trash design”. What was the thought process for keeping these 7+ affixes and can we expect more changes to these affixes to make them more fun line or are these slated to be replaced in the future?
Morgan Day
The changes that we're discussing certainly right now are pretty big swings. We're looking at this from the point of Mythic+ is really trying to serve multiple audiences and trying to come up with a one size fits all solution to that has caused some problems in finding the correct solution. We're taking a step back there; what are the affixes and what are they achieving week over week -- for the audience that is less looking to push rating and be extremely competitive -- and what is the excitement when you have this new affix introduced week over week.
To speak to the post that we made, I think one of the major design goals there that we could try to reiterate on more is that we were trying not to create new Nameplates in the gameplay space, we're not trying to create things that might be considered an ability or mechanic on a boss fight -- you're not spawning a new add, there's not Quaking or Volcanic where feel like these mechanics that are kind of just happening. The things that we wanted to focus on were things that felt more like a overarching rule change, like all trash in the dungeon behaves in this way or reacts in this way and you can plan for that really easily, it's not something that would surprise you. You can hopefully approach the pulls differently or approach the dungeon differently to combat those affixes. That was really where we were focusing on when we did keep some of those affixes that were in those current level 7 bucket. But like we said, we're taking a big step back and revisiting all of that with our next iteration.
Ion Hazzikostas
Again, looking at the data that is informing our decisions, there are meaningful differences in how people experience the content based on the level that they're running it at. An affix like Storming that was considered a free affix by very high end players had a noticeable impact on these success rates in the lower ranges. Something like Bursting, that again is considered far easier than Bolstering or Raging in terms of pushing keys at the higher end, has a heavier impact on key success rates than Bolstering or Raging at the lower end because the strategies that are being used are different. And so I think for players at the high end, a lot of what is fun about the system, at least as we understand it, is pushing their limits and employing really aggressive strategies to try to fight as many things at the same time and move through the dungeon as quickly as they can, and affixes that maybe feel more punitive to the particular strategies that are most effective at that high level, end up being the most frustrating ones. But players who are playing at a different level, at a different meta, using different approaches to the dungeons are having a totally different experience and so that's a lot of what we're trying to navigate as we think through how to evolve Mythic+ going forwards.
In Dragonflight, “stops” (Disorients, Stuns, etc) have been used to cancel almost all casts in Mythic+ dungeons. This has put a significant imbalance on classes with and without AoE stops and players who use and don't use them with the damage intake between a group who uses stops and groups who don’t is massive. How do you feel about this and are there any changes for these in War Within?
Ion Hazzikostas
This is also something we've been talking about a bunch. The role and importance of "stops" in Mythic+ is something that has kind of grown organically over the last couple of expansions. The ability to stop casts from completing is something that has always been part of WoW, but generally an enemy that was knocked back or whatever would instantly begin that cast again. You had to use a kick or Counterspell to truly put it on cooldown, so those were more limited in value in the past.
The team had started designing specific abilities in dungeons to go on cooldown when the spell cast began, no matter what, so if you stopped that cast in any manner whether it was Death Gripping the mob or CC'ing it, it would go on cooldown just as if it had been interrupted. That is still appropriate in some circumstances, but the increasing proliferation in dungeons is what kind of created this incredibly powerful utility that has been seen to dictate perceived optimal comps in the last couple years. So we've been designing War Within dungeons to move back closer to how things used to be in that regard, still doing it where it's appropriate, but not defaulting to have all abilities go on cooldown when the cast starts. These tools should still be tremendously powerful tools for disrupting, for managing, for relocating enemies in a dungeon but they shouldn't be the answer to nearly every problem that you're presented in a way that reduces viable comp diversity.
Morgan Day
It also just creates a disparity between how the game works and how Mythic+ and dungeons worked in same cases. Spells only have a cooldown when they're kicked or when they complete their cast; that's my expectation as a player, that's how my character works. As Ion mentioned, taking a step back and essentially reevaluating not treating that as a different experience from how the rest of the game works also provided an opportunity for us to look at this and evaluate other things. We don't want to just make this change in a vacuum, we wanted to look at "alright these spells that are considered Must Stop, what's their cast time? What's their recast time? Let's make these changes and look at how dangerous these spells are with more intentionality". Because it's very easy to just have them recasting or have quick cast times when there's interrupts that are being thrown around more commonly.
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